Discussion about this post

User's avatar
Doctrix Periwinkle's avatar

Came here from Freddie de Boer's subscriber writing post, and I am so glad I did. What a superlative article! This has given me a lot to think about.

My background is in infectious disease research, and I now teach things about infectious diseases and immunology. Something that my students always find troubling is the amount of randomness and death that a working immune system entails. How the system works is: I make a bunch of B-cells and T-cells, and they randomly put together their B-cell and T-cell receptors to recognize pathogens from a library of parts. Then, for good measure, they just mutate the DNA for those parts a ton of times, just to throw in some more randomness. Then, they are exposed to self-proteins, and if they respond to self, they die. Oh, also if they don't respond to signals from other cells, they die. Or if they respond to aggressively to signals from other cells, yep, dead too. So practically all the B- and T- cells ever made in your body just die almost as soon as they're made.

But that's terrible! my students say. Why isn't there a more *efficient* system, without so much waste? Why all these random mutations and recombinations? Wouldn't it be better to design the perfect antibody?

Ah, but our legion ancestors evolved this system because what was needed to survive wasn't efficient design, it was having the right tool on hand for some future infectious environment. What might that environment be? No one can predict, so let's just make all the tools we can and destroy the ones that don't work.

This is something I was thinking about in association with this excellent article.

Expand full comment
Frank Lantz's avatar

This was brilliant. I totally agree that there is something important in the KataGo adversarial policy paper that most people haven't really contended with. Knowing where you are in the metagame stack is a hard problem, and by definition, you can't solve all hard problems equally well. It almost feels like there is a law here somewhere, something like "Every system must always trade off between doing something effective and making itself invulnerable to exploitation."

Certainly no guarantee of safety, but perhaps a good direction for safety-minded people (like Zvi) to be exploring, rather than only weighing it's pro- or anti- worryabout content.

Because I can't leave well enough alone, let me take one small stab at defending car meta in Geoguessr.

I think your distaste for car meta, on aesthetic grounds, is completely natural, understandable, and relatable. So much of the beauty of Geoguessr is in seeing the world, the actual world, not as tourist postcards, but in its simple reality - a random street corner in Gdansk, a boring pharmacy in Dundee, a grimy gas station in Dakar - mundane, but also sublime. Who wouldn't resent the intrusion of car & camera metas into this beauty? Shouldn't the game be about grokking the deep patterns of this beauty? Instead of memorizing the arbitrary artifacts of these framing protocols?

And yet.

As an insufferable game snob, I can't help but notice that this reaction, while perfectly sensible, resembles a common refrain that I hear as a reaction to many competitive games...

Scrabble - the fun part is the anagramming, memorizing the dictionary is a grueling chore

Fighting Games - the fun part is reading and responding to your opponent, the precise technical input requirements is unnecessary friction

Chess - the fun part is the improvisational problem-solving of the middle game, studying the opening book is a tedious bore

Go - the fun part is intuiting the deep strategic flow, reading out a ladder, one step at a time, is a drag

I think all deep competitive games force us to confront this same unpleasant fact - that you can never escape the brute fact of the ordinary, the repetitive, the arbitrary details of whatever framing device we use to demarcate the edges of the game, and the rote practice and memorization required to master them. The fact that the things we find most beautiful - our intuition, our imagination, our creative epiphanies - are inextricably linked to these boring, ordinary things, maybe even made up of them. But confronting this fact doesn't make the beauty go away, it just makes it more complex, more poignant. The world, the actual world, with its rolling hills and craggy mountains, its trees and bollards and traffic signs, and its cars and cameras, is mundane, but also sublime.

Expand full comment
13 more comments...

No posts